Mo Latif Interview

Editor:

This time we're talking with a guy who's been at the forefront of tech and marketing for well over a decade now. He's the man behind many of the most successful software as a service products, including ClickDesigns, which has really taken the industry by storm. Now, don't worry if you've not heard about ClickDesigns yet because we're going to find out much more about that and the man behind it. Mo Latif, welcome.

Mo Latif:

Thanks a lot. Thanks for having me.

Editor:

Well, it's great to have you with us, Mo. Now, I've been looking forward to this because ClickDesigns is such an impressive product. So before I ask about you and how it all came about, maybe you could just explain a little about what ClickDesigns is.

Mo Latif:

So ClickDesigns is basically a design tool that replaces a designer. So for example, let's say you're actually building a site or a website or a blog or anything online and you're looking to have graphics for your website. And before I even actually created the software, we would actually outsourcing our graphics, hiring people in-house. And it's just a nightmare, communicating back and forth revisions, endless back and forth actually.

Editor:

Yeah.

Mo Latif:

And I've been doing this for maybe 15 years until I got to a point thinking, "Okay, you know what? This is enough. I've got to figure out a way to eliminate the designer instead of begging to get stuff done, not miss deadlines." And I think that is what pushed me to actually create ClickDesigns.

Editor:

So that was the key driver behind it. And ClickDesigns is like an online graphic repository, isn't it? Where you can actually edit your own graphics really easily. So it takes away the pain point, as you say, of having to hire a designer. I'll be honest, Mo, I've got the design skills of a five-year-old at best. So how have you been able to make this so easy to use?

Mo Latif:

Well, luckily for you, it's perfect for five year olds as well. So because I've been doing projects for two decades now, the way we did everything, I mean, we started up with a logo. From a logo, we'll go to a book cover. From a book cover, we'll go to a [inaudible 00:02:07], we'll go to different illustrations. And it's actually a process that we just repetitively do every other month for our projects. And it just came to a point thinking, "Okay, you know what? I'm going to start with the logo, then I'm going to need this, then I'm going to need this, then I'm going to need this." I know what I need. So if I'm doing this and there's millions of other people doing the exact same thing. So I started designing and creating a software that actually allows me myself to go in, create my logo, create my box covers, create my book covers, create my designs for my web pages, my sales pages, my offers without literally wasting time chasing, communicating. I mean, we had designers across in different countries. Sometimes it's the communication issues, sometimes it's internet issues, there's always an excuse to be honest with you. And we were like, what actually gave real buzz to it is, I would say ClickFunnels, I think. And we actually had programmers at the time as well. So from programmers, we were like, "Do you know what? We need to eliminate the programmers." And obviously an old friend, Russell Brunson, he had a ClickFunnels, I started using it and then I realised this does absolutely, well, kind of everything that I need except for the designs.

Editor:

Right, yeah.

Mo Latif:

So it fixed the programming and the website problem, but the biggest problem was the actual graphics for my own sites. They do provide, I mean, every single site builder. They provide templates, so you can literally come in and start editing, however you're stuck at the design process. And that's when people kind of either cancel their subscription to these site builders because they're like, "You can't change or edit." So what we do instead is we work seamlessly with the site builders. So what happens is once you create a graphic, you can just literally stick it into the site builder and it's done. You don't need slicing, you don't need editing, you don't need absolutely nothing because every site builder is built on elements and frames and when you create something, it basically says when you go to a site builder, it says, "Image. Insert your image here." You can just literally insert your image and it just fits in. So all you have to do is select a template inside ClickDesigns, customise it to your brand, and just stick it straight into site builder without any help. Because if you can use the site builder, you can use ClickDesigns.

Editor:

Yeah, and it is seriously impressive and very simple to use. For anybody who's not discovered ClickDesigns before, first of all, where can you find ClickDesigns?

Mo Latif:

ClickDesigns.com.

Editor:

Simple as that.

Mo Latif:

Yep.

Editor:

Nice and simple. Now I'm sure I'm going to have many more questions to ask about ClickDesigns, but first let's find out a little bit more about you, Mo. What's your background?

Mo Latif:

My background, I mean, I started working as an accountant/investment banking background. Then got literally bored of the still life in London, Liverpool Street, Bank Street, no, Bank Station.

Editor:

Yeah.

Mo Latif:

And from there, I think it was 2000 and no, 1998, I think it was. Then obviously Google gave birth and I was like thinking this is a new thing and I hate actually going to work, I hate the commute. So I actually believed in the fact that the internet was going to stay. So what I basically did is I started planning on how I can actually move away from a corporate job onto working from home or just working for myself. So I think it was in 2002 when I registered my first domain name. I was like, "Okay, this is expensive, but is this thing for real? Is it going to actually follow through?" Fast-forward 20 years later, look where we are. We are still here, and the internet is still booming. Obviously there's technology advances. But I'll say from 2000, and so when I started 2002, it took me three years to say, "You know what? Let's do something."

Editor:

Yeah.

Mo Latif:

So I was procrastinating thinking, "Okay, it's not going to stay. It's going to stay. I've got to learn this. I've got to learn that." 2005, I watched a couple of video series online by a whole bunch of gurus. They don't like to be called gurus, which is a good thing. So one of them was Frank Han, Jeff Alderson, John Reese, Jeff Walker. So all the old school internet marketers that actually give birth to the word, I would say, internet marketing. And after watching these guys, I was like, "You know what? If they can do it, why can't I do it?" So 2005, took me another two years to actually get on, but I started making money online, but it wasn't as significant until 2007. I actually went to my first event in the state, which cost me an arm and a leg. And what happened after that is I came back six months later, did my first product launch. It was super successful. Carried on creating different products, info products, mostly until about 2012. And then 2017, I started working with partners in regards to creating software. I wasn't good at creating software at the time. I mean, I understood nothing. But my main expertise or what actually got me started was copywriting. I mean, that's the number one skill. I think all these gurus literally tell you is learn copywriting. And that's the first thing I ever learned before anything else. So yeah, I learned copywriting. I became really good at copywriting, email marketing, VSLs, webinar script. So anything content written became really good at. So once I, sorry. So then we were working on ClickBank for several years. Then we went on to JVZoo, and I think the goal with JVZoo was, even though I was doing product launch with a partner, the idea basically was I'm actually going to gain the top three of the entire of JVZoo. And two years later, or it three years later, I can't remember, but we actually became top 1% vendors on JVZoo. And that was with my partners, my partner, sorry. Then thereafter, then became the real struggle, which was even though I've been doing the same thing over and over again for the last 20 years, when I start project, I get the idea, start copywriting, get a website, design the site, it's the same process, it's the same protocol. So the biggest headache at that time was originally programming, getting the website up. So obviously, ClickFunnels at that time sorted that problem out, but the real biggest pain thereafter was the designing part of it. And I think that's where after, I don't know, 18 maybe, I don't know, 15 years, I was like, "You know what? This needs to stop. I can't keep doing this." You do get that occasion where people actually say, "Yeah, I'm going to fix this problem. I'm going to lose a bit, I'm going to do this," but they don't do it until many, many years later. So that's when I thought, "You know what? This is enough. I'm actually going to do this." I started creating the software, sorry, using the software for my own product launches for three years. Nobody knew I had a software, obviously kept it internal. So every single time we had a launch, we'll actually do our own graphics, put it on the website, and everyone's like, "Dude, who's doing your graphics?" I'm like, "Me." But their response was always, "But you're a copywriter. You're the guy that does the content." And I was like, "Yeah, but I actually did this." Nobody believed it. Literally nobody believed it until I think two years, so this was going on for 18 months. Every three months, I'd get a bombardment of people saying, "Look, who's your designer? Who's your designer?" And I'm thinking, "Guys, why can't you just believe that it's me?"

Editor:

Yeah.

Mo Latif:

"But we know you can't do it." So whilst that was going on for 18 months, one day, one guy just literally said, "Look, you need to stop lying. You need to stop bullshitting." And I'm thinking, "Dude, I'm telling you. You know what? Let me show you, okay?" So we had a call, I did a live screen share. And within, I would say a couple of minutes, they just stopped the conversation saying, "Right, okay, we've seen enough." I was like, "What do you mean? I'll show you the rest of it?" He goes, "No, no. I get what this is." And then what he just basically did is he stopped the conversation and he said, "Just give me access. I know exactly what I'm going to do." And I was like, "Okay, but don't you want to see the rest of the demo?" He goes, "you don't need to do a demo because I've seen your work, I've seen your websites and they look brilliant." Nobody's done the same thing ever on JVZoo until I think once I started I think structuring not only the sales pages, but the content by also specifically dialled in the graphics. So it wasn't just random graphics put on the page. It's literally, so if I had a paragraph on the webpage, I'll have a graphic that represents the content. So when you scan down a sales page, you'll see the graphic and that graphic will tell you a story as you go down, down, down. Does that make sense?

Editor:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mo Latif:

So you've got the headline and you've got the sub-headline. You can read the sub-headline, but when there's too much content, as you're scrolling down, you're like, "This is too much to read," you'll start scanning. But then the idea is for the graphics to represent that story or represent the message as they scroll down to hit the buy button. And I think people started actually understanding more than more as I was doing it, and they were like, "You know what? We need access to this." So what's funny is, so everybody didn't believe me until I actually showed it to them and everybody that I showed it to, within minutes were like, "Dude, stop. Just give us access." And I was doing this for three years with a partner. And obviously, my partner was doing the software development of another product. I was doing the copywriting as well as designing and check the pages. In the I think it was three years or four years that we were doing product launch together, I think. So in total, we did over 4 million in revenue. And again, the graphics were done with the software. There was no graphic designer. And I think that was the biggest thing for me. Even though it was done, it was created, I could have started selling it, but I didn't. I carried on tweaking it, improving it in a total of three years before I think, I had a lot of people just turn around and say, "Look dude, you need to sell this. I mean, everybody needs this, especially in our industry." And that got me thinking, "Okay, you know what? Let me see. Let me give it to more people. Let me see what their feedback is." So I sent it out to a bunch of high profile marketers and the responses start pouring in. They're like, "Dude, this is amazing. This is the best thing. Dude, I'm going to fire my," I had one guy literally turn around and say, "Within three weeks, we fired our," I think three years or five years designer on their payroll.

Editor:

Wow.

Mo Latif:

And fair enough, I mean, my agenda wasn't to get people fired, but the simplicity of being able to think of a project, start your project and execute and start selling your product or your service online, we've just simplified the process.

Editor:

Yeah.

Mo Latif:

Because in general, it takes around, I don't know, a month for us to do our graphics when we didn't have the software. Now, we're like, "You know what? As the content's done, we'll go into the software, grab the graphics, put them on the site and we're good to go." So that will take a couple of days compared to what used to take a month, especially when you include the stress, the headache, the back and forth, the revisions, just countless communication just to get something done. So let's say for example, there's a little dot on an image that you want changing, you give it to the designer and he'll say, "Yeah, I'll be back in three days." I'm thinking, "Dude, it's a dot. It does not take three days to remove the dot." But fair play to him, he might have other clients and stuff, but seriously, don't give me three days and charge me a hundred dollars just to take that dot out.

Editor:

Yeah.

Mo Latif:

Does that make sense?

Editor:

Absolutely. It's about convenience as well, as you say, isn't it?

Mo Latif:

Oh, completely.

Editor:

I think that's the key to this. So many questions about this, Mo. I mean, first of all, in 2002, that's when you decided to go all in terms of the internet. Of course, around that time, we were still coming out of the dotcom boom and bust. Did that give you any reason to worry or was that more of a, did that encourage you more?

Mo Latif:

To be honest, I think it actually encouraged me more because even though it was a busted boom at the time, it's the same thing that's happening right now when it's coming to the AI stuff right now. And when the crypto came out, there's everybody raving about it, investing into it, investment bankers and all the investment firms actually jumping straight into it, throwing money at it. And then they realised, "Oh, you know what? This doesn't do anything." For example, pet.com, people poured money into it and it did nothing and it went bust. Amazon had money into it, but they carried on. So the strong players, they carried on. And as you can see today, people like Amazon especially, they survived it even though I don't think they were making money for maybe 10 years or something.

Editor:

Yeah, yeah.

Mo Latif:

So for me it was I didn't want to do a nine to five, I didn't want to work for anybody else. I mean, I think the maximum, actually, no, that's not true. I think I worked for maybe 18 months tops for somebody, but as I'm working, I'm like, "Guys, you can actually make," I'm a systems guy, okay, so I look for things that can make my life easier. So when you provide that information to your upper higher level management, they're like, "No, we have a system that works, carry on using it." And because I became good at computers, I think that actually got me more convinced thinking, "You know what? Let's go the internet route." Because I created a system whilst I was working in one of the investment banking and it was just literally a macro [inaudible 00:16:11] of Excel sheet, which integrated with their management system. And all I had to do at the end of the month was press F9. And obviously, I kept it quiet, which I shouldn't be actually saying here right now, but for 18 months they were just paying me to press F9. I was like, "That's cool. I can keep doing this."

Editor:

Yeah, yeah.

Mo Latif:

But I actually bored, literally got bored. I mean, even though you're getting paid a good amount, you're like, "I don't want to do this. I literally don't want to do, there's more to this." So I think I started planning my internet marketing journey, I guess, whilst working there. And to be honest with you, I think that's probably the best decision I've made in my entire life.

Editor:

And did you move out of London at that point, Mo?

Mo Latif:

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. The reason why I moved out of London was the fact that I was told before I went to London that you'll end up being a headless chicken. And I'm thinking, "What is that thing?" So I figured out that, so what it basically means is you'll automatically robotically continue to do something every single day, you won't even notice you're doing it, you're programmed to just do it. Until one day, I think what made my decision concrete was I promised myself, obviously I'm never going to be a headless chicken. So I went to a tube station, went to the train underground tube, and I was going home, I met a friend, bumped into him. And he goes, "Come and see me at this place." I was like, "Okay, cool." I still went to the machine, paid the amount to go home because I'm programmed. Right? That was my wake call. I was like, "Okay, you've just done it. It's time to leave."

Editor:

Yeah.

Mo Latif:

And I think I went home and I think I left the same night, to be honest with you.

Editor:

Where were you living at that point?

Mo Latif:

I think it was Euston I was living at.

Editor:

Okay. So quite central?

Mo Latif:

Euston or Marylebone. Yeah, quite central. Yeah.

Editor:

Yeah, yeah. And where are you based now?

Mo Latif:

Up in Scotland.

Editor:

Okay. So you've stayed living in the UK, you've not been tempted to go to maybe the US where tech companies are perhaps embraced a little bit more. Everyone of course looks at Silicon Valley. And you've not done this through investment in your own company. You've basically bankrolled ClickDesigns yourself, have you?

Mo Latif:

That is correct. So the reason why I don't, I've got hundreds, I would even say thousands of friends who are colleagues and associates in the US and we speak more or less every single day. I work on multiple different time zones. I mean, I lived in different countries in the east side, sorry, in the southeast, in the Middle East. I've stayed in Europe. I've stayed in the States. But you know what they say, don't they? There's no place like home. Right?

Editor:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mo Latif:

So I think the important thing is your own time management because when you're dealing with the state people, as you already know that, they're coming at a certain time, but the people from the east, they're coming at a certain time. You think, "Okay, you know what? Now, you've got to manage your times." So I think I've got to a point or a position where it's like, "Okay, so I have a schedule. I'm going to stick to my schedule. And if I need to speak somebody on the East Coast, I will arrange a time that is convenient for me," but mutually effective for them as well. I don't want to be selfish.

Editor:

Yeah.

Mo Latif:

And same on the east side, same thing. I try to accommodate as much as I can, but because we work, the internet just basically opened from a local and national market to an international market. And I think that was my driving force, which was, "Why would I want to sell just to the local people or the national people? I could go worldwide." And I think that was my key driving factor back in 2002, 2005, was like, "I'm going to go global. I can make more money going global than if I just focus on the local or the national market."

Editor:

Yeah. One of the things you mentioned earlier was the fact that you had almost this first move advantage through your own launches by using your ClickDesigns software, you were able to launch perhaps way quicker than anybody else who were still outsourcing their designs to third parties. Did you ever think to yourself I don't want to let other people have this system because it takes away that first mover advantage from myself?

Mo Latif:

The answer is yes and no. The reason why, my original intention wasn't to sell it. So because I got, I wouldn't say pestered, I would say, I don't know, cornered into people saying, "Look, you actually need to sell this now because it's good, it works and it's a real product." Right? And it's solving a real pain that a huge majority of the industry is actually having right now because they've got the ideas, but they need people to execute. And especially when it comes to graphics, they've got to go out to Fiverr, to Upwork, they've got to vet, review, I don't know, interview until they finally find people. But then again, they're not even guaranteed that person they're interviewed or they actually hired is going to stay for as long as you want them to stay.

Editor:

Yeah.

Mo Latif:

So I guess my answer to that question basically is originally it was for myself. And when I did have the advantage of actually launching faster, it just came to a point thinking, you know what, this is really, really good. I didn't expect it to be this good. Now because it's this good, personally, we don't do any more product launches, so we just stick with one core business now. So it's the one thing and we're just scaling the one thing.

Editor:

Got you. And you said earlier that copy is king, that you mastered the skill of copywriting. Words do make a huge difference, but also I guess first impressions count. So why are graphics so important in achieving that?

Mo Latif:

If you have, this could be a bad explanation, but you could have, I don't know, a really ugly looking car. So let's say a Datsun Sunny back in, I don't know, 1970s I think.

Editor:

Yeah.

Mo Latif:

And then you put today's Lamborghini next to it. What would catch your attention? What would you go for?

Editor:

Yeah. No matter how good the sales copy is at that point for the Nissan Sunny or the Datsun Sunny. Yeah, it's not going to match up, is it? So I guess it's a combination of those things, isn't it? Copy is so important, so important.

Mo Latif:

Yep.

Editor:

But also these days, especially I think nowadays because of Instagram, everyone's used to seeing really good looking pictures and imagery around everything. So to have that now associated with your own products is super important. That's where I guess ClickDesigns really comes into its own.

Mo Latif:

But here's the biggest factor as well. If you literally think about it, there's so much information now. There's so much content and our consumption rate, even probably Iran, has increased significantly. What we used to learn and understand 10 years ago has tripled, quadrupled right now. I consume so much information and I do even ask myself, "Why are you consuming this much information?" So when you're reading blog posts, if you go back 10 years, blog posts were just content. Right?

Editor:

Yeah.

Mo Latif:

But if you go to a blog post now, it's content broken up by images, photos, that's how they're breaking up. Okay, so the visual aspect is what retains people to stay on the page, to read further and take action. Because if it was just content, I mean, yeah, a hundred percent, the copy is king, but it's the images that, without the images, you're visualising the story. Does that make sense?

Editor:

Yeah, absolutely.

Mo Latif:

With the images, we give you the story.

Editor:

Well, also, I guess that there are more digital products now, as you say, than ever before.

Mo Latif:

Oh, yeah.

Editor:

But to have a graphical representation of a digital product can really help with conversions. Is that what you find?

Mo Latif:

Definitely. Definitely. Because it's what they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. Right?

Editor:

Yeah.

Mo Latif:

And the brain processes images more than 600, actually not, 60,000 times faster because we're visual creatures because we see with the eyes first. So if it doesn't attract our attention, so when you go to a webpage and it looks ugly, you think, "All right, move on." But if you go to a webpage and it looks nice and you think, "Okay, let me have a look at this."

Editor:

Yeah.

Mo Latif:

So we look with our eyes first before the mind actually goes and thinks, "You know what? Yeah, I need to read this now."

Editor:

Absolutely. And they say don't judge a book by its cover, but you can't help but do that. Right?

Mo Latif:

Exactly. Exactly.

Editor:

Just to explore that a little bit further, Mo, what kind of graphic design elements are the most important in your opinion?

Mo Latif:

For a webpage or for a blog or for what kind of page?

Editor:

I guess for an online business? So I guess website landing page would possibly be what we should explore.

Mo Latif:

So with a landing page, it depends on what the end user is actually selling as a product or a service. So if they're selling a digital product, then you've got book covers, you've got digital device markups, you've got product bundles, you also have magazine covers. It's a whole range of stuff. And you can have digital devices where you can actually put your content in the device. So let's say if it's a mockup and your content is actually in the device and there's a person actually sitting there in an image that shows the device of your company, it gives the user experience. Does that make sense?

Editor:

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

Mo Latif:

And then you've got the service side of it. So with the service side, because you're selling, it's not a tangible product. So the only way around that is we create images that represents the service that they're going to offer. So you can do this with illustrations, you could do this with annotations. So every different, the visual aspect comes in different forms and different shapes. Okay? The idea is to represent, the content should, sorry, no. The graphic should represent the content. Okay? So if you can present your visuals in a way that represents the content, it just makes it so much easier for your conversions.

Editor:

Yeah, yeah. And in terms of ClickDesigns itself, can you just run us through the types of designs that you can actually make using the ClickDesign system?

Mo Latif:

Well, to be honest with you, every single design that we use for our own businesses is the exact same design you find available inside ClickDesigns.

Editor:

So this is things like ebook covers?

Mo Latif:

Yep.

Editor:

Podcast covers?

Mo Latif:

Yep.

Editor:

Landing page graphics, icons?

Mo Latif:

That's correct.

Editor:

Security seals for payment links and so on?

Mo Latif:

Yep.

Editor:

And all of that. And how does that work, Mo? Is it a subscription based service?

Mo Latif:

Yeah. It's a subscription based service, but we do allow users to actually have a 14-day free trial. So the whole idea behind it is for you to actually go inside the editor, use it and see, even compare to any other tools that people actually use. And the interesting thing is, even though I should be saying this, but we got compared to Canva before we launched. There's one guy who's used it, some testimonial saying this is like Canva, but for direct response marketers. I'm thinking, "Ah, that's cute." Until six months later, once we started selling it, we had a bombardment of people saying, "You guys are like Canva, but better." I'm thinking, "What are they telling me? What's the message?" And they said, "As marketers, you cater for that market. Canva caters towards social media people, small businesses." And I think that was the point where we actually started significantly differentiating. So we work with site builders, for example, GroovePages, [inaudible 00:28:22]. We also work with Go High Level. We've got people who use ClickFunnels, Kajabi, Kartra, people who are actually on Amazon, ClickBank, JVZoo, they're on Digistore, even Etsy. So all these people are actually using our graphics for their business.

Editor:

Yeah. And it's a seriously impressive piece of software. You mentioned the 14-day free trial.

Mo Latif:

Yeah.

Editor:

Mo, anybody listening or reading this, how can they sign up for that?

Mo Latif:

Honestly, you can just go to ClickDesigns.com and at the top it just says, "Try it free," click on the try it free, create an account and you should be good to go. And again, like I said, once you're inside, play about with it, break it, do what you need to get done. Does this solve your problem? And if it does, perfect. If it doesn't, tell us why. We'll improve it.

Editor:

Sounds good. Sounds really good. Mo, listen, thank you so much for your time today. It's been an absolute pleasure to chat with you.

Mo Latif:

Likewise.

Editor:

And find out more about you and also about ClickDesigns. We wish you all the best with ClickDesigns, and I'm sure it's going to be one of those systems that continues to evolve and grow over time.

Mo Latif:

Yeah. A hundred percent.

Editor:

Thanks again for your time today. Great speaking with you.

Mo Latif:

All right, thanks a lot.